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Electric vehicles - what does the future hold?
Brewha Offline
#1001 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
HockeyDad wrote:
I own stock in Tesla and am sweating out this earnings report. At this point owning Tesla stock is a contrarian play.

EV sales growth absolutely requires mandates. Can’t afford a EV or don’t own a house with a charging station…ride the bus. This is concerning.

I think you'll love taking the bus - "...and leave the driving to us!"
DrafterX Offline
#1002 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,552
Can't ride an electric bus in Asheville, NC...
Brewha Offline
#1003 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
Poor HD.....
HockeyDad Offline
#1004 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
I ain’t riding no bus. That requires something like 8 ‘Rona vaccines. Driving a Tesla just requires 3 ‘Rona vaccines and a mask.
Brewha Offline
#1005 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
How bout if DMV sent you some of his Ivermectin?
MACS Offline
#1006 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,789
Brewha wrote:
How bout if DMV sent you some of his Ivermectin?


Turns out that stuff works. Has been used widely for some time... and doesn't make people "drop dead suddenly" like the jab.

YMMV whip
Brewha Offline
#1007 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
So recently, I was at the gas station here in Texas as a Blue Northern blew in. Artic air, damp, 30-35 mile per hour from the North. Of course the card reader didn't work on the pump, so I got to walk to the station - and stand behind those who were buying Lotto Tickets (playfully know a Texas retirement plans).

Once the pump was running I sat in the car (my wifes car), and when it clicked I got out in the cold, and went back into the station to settle up.

Cold weather sux. Even worse if you are a Texan not used to it. Even worse if you live down by the lake. And if you are a Texan that lives down by the lake....well, you get it.

I bring this up because it was the first time in over a year that I had to go to a gas station at all. My car get a "full tank" in the garage every night.

I told my wife that from now on I was going to call a trip to the filling station "Prime Time" - to respect my BOTL.
DrafterX Offline
#1008 Posted:
Joined: 10-18-2005
Posts: 98,552
I live by da lake... Mellow
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1009 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
The Unexpected Problem With EVs: They 'Tire' Quickly


Electric vehicles go through tires 30% faster than gas-powered vehicles, Bridgestone says, so it developed its first EV-specific replacement tire that protects range and improves durability.


Some electric vehicle owners are finding themselves in the market for new tires sooner than they would be with a gas-powered vehicle.

EVs burn through tires 30% faster than combustible engine cars thanks to hefty weights and speedy acceleration, according to Bridgestone, which this week unveiled a new tire developed specifically for electric vehicles. Dubbed the Turanza EV, it starts at $289, depending on tire size. It's now available at Bridgestone retailers in the US and

“The Turanza EV is the answer to the most common question my team gets: What tires do you recommend for an EV?” a Bridgestone rep said at this weekend's Electrify Expo in Long Beach, California. "People love their EVs but not the tires, so we see an opportunity to deliver a product that can fulfill needs for those consumers."

The company projects 30% of new vehicles will be electric by the end of the decade.

Bridgestone's new Enliten technology aims to solve the wear-and-tear problem. Tires also affect range, so Bridgestone developed a new polymer, called PeakLife, that reduces rolling resistance. A QuietTrack tread design also tackles road noise; the Turanza EV takes inspiration from the company's touring tire line, which aims to keep road noise at a minimum.

“A 2017-19 Tesla has been around long enough to see the wear show," says Josh Bulrice of Bridgestone marketing. "People are...looking for their next option based on what they’ve learned during their ownership. Treadwear is a constant conversation."

Increased tire wear can also contribute to air quality issues. In Oslo, Norway, where electric vehicles make two-thirds of registered vehicles but a higher proportion of traffic, the "air has unhealthy levels of microscopic particles generated partly by the abrasion of tires and asphalt," The New York Times reports.

In developing the Turanza, Bridgestone tested it on the most popular EVs: The full Tesla lineup (the Model 3, S, X, and Y), as well as the Ford Mustang Mach-E. It now offers five sizes for these vehicles, with 13 additional sizes launching in early 2024, says Bridgestone.

The new tire contains 50% renewable and recycled materials. The manufacturing process also uses a "synthetic rubber associated with recycled plastic, helping keep more used plastics out of landfills and the environment," Bridgestone says.

Continental also developed an EV-specific tire, which it calls the EcoContact 6. And Michelin recommends specific tires for EVs. All three companies—Bridgestone, Continental, and Michelin—cite the importance of reducing wear, minimizing road noise, and protecting range.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-unexpected-problem-with-evs-they-tire-quickly


Saving mo money, mo money, mo money!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1010 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
GM and Honda join forces to make hydrogen fuel cells for ‘various products’



The two companies are now producing fuel cells out of its jointly owned facility in Michigan.

General Motors and Honda announced that their joint venture company, FCSM, has begun production of hydrogen fuel cells that will eventually make their way into “various product applications.”

Hydrogen fuel cells use compressed hydrogen as their fuel, releasing water vapor as its only emission. A number of automakers have recently seized on the technology for its advantages in the development of heavy-duty vehicles and mobile power generators — and as a way to further transition away from polluting gas-powered vehicles.

Hydrogen fuel cells use compressed hydrogen as their fuel, releasing water vapor as its only emission

FCSM, which stands for “Fuel Cell System Manufacturing,” was established in 2017 as a joint venture between GM and Honda. The two automakers have also collaborated on battery electric vehicles, including the Honda Prologue, Acura ZDX, and Cruise Origin.

FCSM’s 70,000-square-foot facility in Brownstown, Michigan, was built with an $83 million joint investment by GM and Honda. The companies call it “the first large-scale manufacturing joint venture to build fuel cells.”

Hydrogen has found little success in the passenger car market. Honda was one of the only companies to sell a hydrogen-powered car — the Clarity — before it was discontinued in 2017. The problem stems from the near-total absence of a refueling infrastructure. Automakers are now pivoting to work trucks and construction equipment, theorizing that it will be easier to build hydrogen fueling stations for vehicles that operate in confined areas.

Hydrogen’s energy content by volume is low, which makes storing hydrogen a challenge because it requires high pressures, low temperatures, or chemical processes to be stored compactly. Overcoming this challenge is important for light-duty vehicles because they often have limited size and weight capacity for fuel storage.

The Biden administration recently proposed new tax guidelines aimed at making it cheaper to produce hydrogen as a less-polluting alternative to fossil fuels. The problem, though, is that most hydrogen is made with the help of fossil fuels, mostly through a process called steam methane reforming that produces carbon dioxide emissions. Methane is an even more powerful greenhouse gas than CO2 and routinely escapes along the supply chain, from production to final use.

https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/25/24049470/gm-honda-hydrogen-fuel-cells-joint-venture-michigan
RayR Offline
#1011 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
Those GREEN PEOPLE hate CO2 and they hate Methane (Natural Gas). I think they hate chemistry altogether.
But somehow, they think the electricity to charge their batteries doesn't involve the chemistry of the things they hate.Brick wall .
HockeyDad Offline
#1012 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
Tesla stock down 12% today.
Brewha Offline
#1013 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
So, what does the future hold for EVs?

Unfortunately many see EVs as a political issue. Sandy Monro (a man whom I greatly respect) tells us that automotive engineering 10% technology and 90% psychology. And he’s right. Buying a car is an emotional choice. So going forward we will have many good, red blooded Americans who would never drive some electric POS. And some politicians have told us that “if we move to EVs it will be the biggest gift to China ever”.

But China already has the gift. They own many important battery technologies and companies you never heard of in China are tooling up and taking the lead. But not by selling $100k plus EVs - they have sub $20k EVs that the Chinese can’t wait to buy - because they are so much cheaper to operate and their air pollution is really bad. An their government subsidies the crap out of them - because they see the future.

Come 2035 when a few state “might” stop in state sales of gas cars, the Chinese makers will be here. Remember Toyota in the mid 20th century? We went from “I’ll never own some foreign POS”, to I wish I had a Tundra.

Anyway - keep your eyes peeled for BYD.

Just my opinions here - YMMV
MACS Offline
#1014 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,789
Nope.

Most Americans NEED a car. Most American households cannot afford more than one car, so that car has to be able to do everything they have to do... which invariably means traveling more than 250 miles.

And once again... the infrastructure (charging stations) can NOT support the amount of EV's currently on the road in most places. And the electrical infrastructure (power for the charging stations) has to come from some f'n where... and it damn sure ain't solar and f'n wind.

Fossil fuel/nuke/solar/wind can't keep up with current demand in some places right now, ffs.

IF (huge if) charging stations were as available and as fast as refueling gasoline, I would not be so anti-electric.

IMO what would be more prudent is dumping that R&D money into hydrogen fuel cell technology, not electric... that is, if they really want to make an impact on the environment. It's cleaner. And making automotive batteries does more to harm the environment. FACT.
Brewha Offline
#1015 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
MACS wrote:
Nope.

Most Americans NEED a car. Most American households cannot afford more than one car, so that car has to be able to do everything they have to do... which invariably means traveling more than 250 miles.

And once again... the infrastructure (charging stations) can NOT support the amount of EV's currently on the road in most places. And the electrical infrastructure (power for the charging stations) has to come from some f'n where... and it damn sure ain't solar and f'n wind.

Fossil fuel/nuke/solar/wind can't keep up with current demand in some places right now, ffs.

IF (huge if) charging stations were as available and as fast as refueling gasoline, I would not be so anti-electric.

IMO what would be more prudent is dumping that R&D money into hydrogen fuel cell technology, not electric... that is, if they really want to make an impact on the environment. It's cleaner. And making automotive batteries does more to harm the environment. FACT.

MACS, what do you think of the Mirai?
Would you own one?

https://www.toyota.com/mirai/
MACS Offline
#1016 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,789
Same issue... they don't have the infrastructure for it. If they did, I would certainly consider owning one. But right now all the $$ is on electric, which to me just isn't ever going to be viable. (unless they start building nuke plants all over)

Hydrogen would require less effort to get to where gas is... if they put the money into it.
Abrignac Offline
#1017 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
Brewha wrote:
MACS, what do you think of the Mirai?
Would you own one?

https://www.toyota.com/mirai/


My 2 cents.

I’d consider anything that is a net positive on the environment as long as its cost of ownership is within reason.

Like MACS I don’t believe EV’s are ready for prime time simply because the infrastructure needed to support a switch from petro to electric isn’t in place nor is there any indication that it will be anytime soon. In fact, I think most automakers are beginning to rethink the long term viability of EV’s. That in of itself is probably delaying the massive infrastructure investments needed for long term EV viability.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1018 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Brewha wrote:
Unfortunately many see EVs as a political issue.


It ALWAYS was. Those that chose not to see it leaped headfirst.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/biden-could-delay-ev-switch-as-auto-industry-pressure-mounts/ar-BB1iwcDW?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=ff1bdd1e89524431fb82e7fd849cde71&ei=11

With auto manufacturers pleading with the current administration to end their insanity those that leapt are faced with the uncertainity of higher associated costs to maintain their glorified street legal golf cart.

This is ending much much faster than I could've predicted. I did call it by saying the free market should decide the viability of it versus the government meddling and giveaways to entice the weak minded.

PS: Remember we bailed out the US manufacturers. Wanna do it again? Ford is down 6 billion, 1.8 billion for GM. Not exactly winning the hearts and minds when you're closing factories.
Abrignac Offline
#1019 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
EV momentum has nose dived recently. Tesla’s stock, the darling of the EV movement, is trading at 49% of its all time high. With all the governmental push towards EV’s one would expect better performance from the bellwether.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1020 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Even China had to put off building 5 aircraft carrier groups!

https://www.axios.com/2024/02/14/chinese-ev-electric-vehicles-sold-america
Brewha Offline
#1021 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
Abrignac wrote:
My 2 cents.

I’d consider anything that is a net positive on the environment as long as its cost of ownership is within reason.

Like MACS I don’t believe EV’s are ready for prime time simply because the infrastructure needed to support a switch from petro to electric isn’t in place nor is there any indication that it will be anytime soon. In fact, I think most automakers are beginning to rethink the long term viability of EV’s. That in of itself is probably delaying the massive infrastructure investments needed for long term EV viability.


I agree that if next Tuesday morning all of the cars in the 48 states were EV's it would not work for infrastructure reasons. But we are talking decades not days.

As to the future; let's go with hotly contested year of 2035, a bit less than 12 years, when some states might start mandates on car sales.

The average person owns a car about 8 years. My guess would be that by 2035 well less than half of the US cars are EVs. Sound fair? And then, even with universal mandates (that no one is proposing) the EV's population would only grow by about 12-13% per year. So maybe by 2045 we have like 80-90% EVs?

10-20 years is a long time in terms of infrastructure. In 1990 not even 1% of people had cell phones - and service sucked. By 2000 about 28%, and by 2010 over 80% - with decent service.

Infrastructure for home owners is already there and takes little to make work. Charging stations, well they sure built a lot of them in the last 5 years. Like 160,000. So it's kind of 1992 in cell phone terms.

Of course, Americans may never embrace EVs. And they don't even need a good reason. We tend to drive what we want and like, not what makes the most sense. Just look at all the BMW's on the road....




So the big question is how much people will like them, assuming they actually look at them. And right now - most don't wanna look.
Abrignac Offline
#1022 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
We really do need a crickets emoji.
Brewha Offline
#1023 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
Abrignac wrote:
We really do need a crickets emoji.


I accept your apology.

Angel
Brewha Offline
#1024 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
DrMaddVibe wrote:
It ALWAYS was. Those that chose not to see it leaped headfirst.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/biden-could-delay-ev-switch-as-auto-industry-pressure-mounts/ar-BB1iwcDW?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=ff1bdd1e89524431fb82e7fd849cde71&ei=11

With auto manufacturers pleading with the current administration to end their insanity those that leapt are faced with the uncertainity of higher associated costs to maintain their glorified street legal golf cart.

This is ending much much faster than I could've predicted. I did call it by saying the free market should decide the viability of it versus the government meddling and giveaways to entice the weak minded.

PS: Remember we bailed out the US manufacturers. Wanna do it again? Ford is down 6 billion, 1.8 billion for GM. Not exactly winning the hearts and minds when you're closing factories.



Oh, and when the Chinese kick our azzes in the car market we'll but bailing them out again.

Or is your crystal ball myopic?
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1025 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Brewha wrote:
Oh, and when the Chinese kick our azzes in the car market we'll but bailing them out again.

Or is your crystal ball myopic?



Stop supporting the CCP. The literally own the majority of most of the mineral right globally. They got them through slick Silk Road initiatives from nations that couldn't payback their loans. The CCP isn't some benevolent organization.


Brewha Offline
#1026 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Stop supporting the CCP. The literally own the majority of most of the mineral right globally. They got them through slick Silk Road initiatives from nations that couldn't payback their loans. The CCP isn't some benevolent organization.




I am warning that they are getting ahead of us, not supporting them.

But you would have us do nothing while they capitalize on the EV market.
HockeyDad Offline
#1027 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
Brewha wrote:
I am warning that they are getting ahead of us, not supporting them.

But you would have us do nothing while they capitalize on the EV market.


Make EVs illegal.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1028 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
HockeyDad wrote:
Make EVs illegal.



Then he'd have to make himself fart to hear the noises.
Brewha Offline
#1029 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
HockeyDad wrote:
Make EVs illegal.

And put all those kids mining lithium out of work?
Brewha Offline
#1030 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Then he'd have to make himself fart to hear the noises.

That's no hill for a climber...
Brewha Offline
#1031 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
MACS wrote:


Hydrogen would require less effort to get to where gas is... if they put the money into it.


And I believe that in time that infrastructure could be built.

But the reason they don't sell the Toyota Mirai outside of Southern California is because of the H2 availability.

That's presuresed, -423 degrees F, liquid Hydrogen. Also not a Walmart item.
HockeyDad Offline
#1032 Posted:
Joined: 09-20-2000
Posts: 46,134
Brewha wrote:
And put all those kids mining lithium out of work?


They should learn to code.
Abrignac Offline
#1033 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
Biden Administration Is Said to Slow Early Stage of Shift to Electric Cars

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/17/climate/biden-epa-auto-emissions.html

As I’ve said before they’re: “Not ready for PRIME TIME.”
Brewha Offline
#1034 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
Your link is behind a pay wall. Also not ready for prime time?

In fairness perhaps your deeper point is that Americans are not ready for prime time….
MACS Offline
#1035 Posted:
Joined: 02-26-2004
Posts: 79,789
Brew...

You've said yourself the infrastructure is not there. I've explained to you how most families in the US either can't afford electric, or it's not right for them.

You have your blinders on, pal. You're like a draft horse pulling a cart. Oblivious to anything but your task of pulling that cart.

Nobody else wants to pull that cart, buddy. You keep pulling, but please... for the love of all that is Holy and Good... take the fkn blinders off.
Abrignac Offline
#1036 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
Brewha wrote:
Your link is behind a pay wall. Also not ready for prime time?

In fairness perhaps your deeper point is that Americans are not ready for prime time….



Scott if and when you ever add something germane to any discussions I’ll be be happy to join you. Until then I’ll treat you like the troll you’ve become and ignore you.

Speak to the hand
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1037 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
HockeyDad wrote:
They should learn to code.



dammit
Brewha Offline
#1038 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
Abrignac wrote:
Scott if and when you ever add something germane to any discussions I’ll be be happy to join you. Until then I’ll treat you like the troll you’ve become and ignore you.

Speak to the hand



So, i'm not sure you're using that word properly - not that it matters.

Happy trails Anthony.

May the wind at your back be your own.
Brewha Offline
#1039 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
MACS wrote:
Brew...

You've said yourself the infrastructure is not there. I've explained to you how most families in the US either can't afford electric, or it's not right for them.

You have your blinders on, pal. You're like a draft horse pulling a cart. Oblivious to anything but your task of pulling that cart.

Nobody else wants to pull that cart, buddy. You keep pulling, but please... for the love of all that is Holy and Good... take the fkn blinders off.


Macs, please consider that I am talking about the coming decades. And the cars that would need the infrastructure don't exist yet. And yes, there are pockets like Chicago where people who can't charge at home has issues getting filled up.

It is true that may cannot afford a new car - the average price of which is about $48,000 (so say the intranets). A cheap Tesla starts at $39,000 - still out of reach for many - to your point. There is of course a growing body of used EVs - not that I think people should be compelled to buy one.




To be clear - I don't have a dog in this fight. I like my car and am happy to tell people about the tech. But I am not for anyone being forced to buy one. Really. Honest injun.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1040 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
What's 466 BILLION amongst the CBO and the current administration???

"The Shocking Truth About Biden’s Proposed Energy Fuel Standards

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration NHTSA did an impact assessment of 4 fuel standard proposals and compared them to the cost of doing nothing. Guess what.

Following roughly 150 pages of fearmongering discussion of things like gasoline spills, 27 references to cancer, and the hypothetical benefits of proposed actions, we arrive at this amusing table.

Doing Nothing vs Four Alternatives Year 2035

Here is the NHTSA’s bottom line: “Net benefits for passenger cars remain negative across alternatives” vs doing nothing at all.

Costs are always much greater than expected, and in this case we are already starting from a negative benefit.

And so, here we are.

The Inflation Reduction Act that Biden told us would pay for itself, not only delivers negative benefits “across all time frames” in reducing emissions, it is now expected to cost $466 Billion more over 10 years."


https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/cbo-revised-cost-bidens-energy-policies-466-billion



Pull the plug on this insanity now. The planet will thank us for it.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1041 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Brewha wrote:
Macs, please consider that I am talking about the coming decades. And the cars that would need the infrastructure don't exist yet. And yes, there are pockets like Chicago where people who can't charge at home has issues getting filled up.

It is true that may cannot afford a new car - the average price of which is about $48,000 (so say the intranets). A cheap Tesla starts at $39,000 - still out of reach for many - to your point. There is of course a growing body of used EVs - not that I think people should be compelled to buy one.




To be clear - I don't have a dog in this fight. I like my car and am happy to tell people about the tech. But I am not for anyone being forced to buy one. Really. Honest injun.



You might want to go back and look on your posts on this thread and the others the OP listed. Kinda counter to what you want to backpeddle with now isn't it? You acted more like a Biden Secretary of Transportation assistant than a skeptical toe-dipper when it came to pushing the EV narrative. Comical. When are you going to walk backwards the COVID 1984 hysteria you helped divide and amped up? Yeah.

Pepperidge Farms remembers.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1042 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
On with the "show"!

Tesla competitor Rivian predicts zero growth this year as founder blames the Fed for making him cut a tenth of his staff


For months Elon Musk has been blaming high interest rates for his softening sales growth despite evidence showing that half of all new car buyers in America can afford his EVs. Now, Rivian founder RJ Scaringe joined the chorus, pinning the fault for his firing of every tenth employee indirectly on Federal Reserve Chair Jay Powell.

In a statement, the CEO sought to assure investors that Wednesday’s announced layoffs combined with flat 2024 sales guidance and billions more in expected losses wasn’t a warning sign demand had peaked. Just the opposite, he emphasized, noting that the EV market remained in its infancy with 1.5 billion combustion engine vehicles on the world’s roads still to be replaced by clean, zero-emission cars like his R1S sport utility vehicle.

“We firmly believe in the full electrification of the automotive industry, but recognize in the short term the challenging macroeconomic conditions,” he said, citing broader headwinds outside his control.

Yet the Irvine, Calif.–based automaker almost exclusively depends on customers in the U.S., where equity markets hit new record highs this month amid robust ongoing strength in the labor market and a gross domestic product expanding at a faster pace than anywhere else in the industrialized world. Even Fox News host and former Trump economic advisor Larry Kudlow admitted he had trouble finding fault in the data.

‘Historically high interest rates’

So what exactly are these challenges Scaringe blames then? During the investor call he was more specific.

“Our business is not immune to existing economic and geopolitical uncertainties, most notably the impact of historically high interest rates, which has negatively impacted demand,” Scaringe said.

It’s true that big-ticket items like cars are more sensitive to rates, which are predicted to remain higher for longer to prevent the U.S. economy from overheating. But Rivian caters to a well-heeled crowd of brand-conscious tech enthusiasts that can afford premium-priced vehicles, including his R1T pickup and R1S.

If you listen more closely, Scaringe revealed some of his customers are simply tired of waiting years in some cases for their car, or their lifestyle requirements may have shifted in the meantime owing to different choices. Incumbents failing to deliver attractive EVs hasn’t helped to raise interest in the sector, either, he added.


Unfortunately for the overall industry, Tesla has soaked up most demand from higher income early adopters in the U.S. market, a group upon which Rivian depends. That’s why its longer-term future hangs on the outcome of the March 7 unveiling of its competitor to Tesla’s Model Y, the new R2 midsize SUV that will spearhead its global expansion. It’s no understatement to say this is a make-or-break model for Rivian.

“There is a lack of choice of highly compelling EV products in that $45,000 to $55,000 price range, recognizing the average price of a new vehicle transaction was around $48,000,” he said. “We remain very bullish on the R2 segment and the R2 product itself.”

Avoiding comparisons

In a bid to avoid ongoing comparisons with Tesla and whether Rivian can outcompete Musk’s company, Scaringe sought to shift focus to the promise of hypergrowth by framing EVs as a product relevant for the remaining 93% of car buyers who haven’t adopted the technology given considerations like range and charging infrastructure.

Much like some of Rivian’s customers, investors once dazzled by fantasies of an unimaginably high “total addressable market” do not have the same outlook as they did when they bought into the company’s IPO at the peak of the EV bubble.


Scaringe has little choice now but to look for savings, and this is forcing him to take a giant risk. A major event that will determine the company’s performance this year is a massive multi-week shutdown of production at Rivian’s R1 manufacturing plant in Normal, Ill. Scaringe aims to onboard new suppliers and jettison others in an attempt to reduce material costs and boost assembly line speeds.

Even after work is completed, the slog to coordinate the subsequent ramp-up will affect production in the second half as well. As a result, output this year is predicted to stagnate at 57,000 vehicles, after more than doubling in 2023.

If all goes well, however, the company should exit the year with what he called a “modest” fourth-quarter gross profit. Underlying annual operating losses are forecast to narrow to $2.7 billion from $4 billion last year.

Overall, however, the reality of stagnant sales for a growth stock expected to continue booking heavy losses amid continued executional risk will likely dim investor enthusiasm. Shares are set to open 15% lower on Thursday
when trading begins.

https://fortune.com/2024/02/22/rivian-elon-musk-tesla-interest-rates-growth-evs-federal-reserve/


Totally predictable.
RayR Offline
#1043 Posted:
Joined: 07-20-2020
Posts: 8,892
^ If all you have holding your business together and driving consumer demand is the reliance on artificially low interest rates by the FED and government subsidies you ain't got much of a business to begin with. Maybe they should try capitalism, making a product customers want at a price they can afford.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1044 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Oh...doesn't that make the most sense?
Abrignac Offline
#1045 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
RayR wrote:
^ If all you have holding your business together and driving consumer demand is the reliance on artificially low interest rates by the FED and government subsidies you ain't got much of a business to begin with. Maybe they should try capitalism, making a product customers want at a price they can afford.

DrMaddVibe Offline
#1046 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Huh...thought you blocked him?

Abrignac Offline
#1047 Posted:
Joined: 02-24-2012
Posts: 17,278
DrMaddVibe wrote:
Huh...thought you blocked him?



I do. But occasionally I peek to see if he has anything worthwhile to say that would lead to me unblocking him. Have to quote him to see his posts. Probably hit the post button by accident afterwards.
Brewha Offline
#1048 Posted:
Joined: 01-25-2010
Posts: 12,182
DrMaddVibe wrote:
You might want to go back and look on your posts on this thread and the others the OP listed. Kinda counter to what you want to backpeddle with now isn't it? You acted more like a Biden Secretary of Transportation assistant than a skeptical toe-dipper when it came to pushing the EV narrative. Comical. When are you going to walk backwards the COVID 1984 hysteria you helped divide and amped up? Yeah.

Pepperidge Farms remembers.


I think I speak for many here what I say this is what we all love about you DrMaddVibe.

You never stoop to name calling - no middle school posting for you.
Always seeking to understand the view of others through adult discussion and debate.
No judging - everyone has a right to their opinion.
Never posting an option that you did not find online - because that make it a fact.

Bravo DMV!
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1049 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
Brewha wrote:
I think I speak for many here what I say this is what we all love about you DrMaddVibe.

You never stoop to name calling - no middle school posting for you.
Always seeking to understand the view of others through adult discussion and debate.
No judging - everyone has a right to their opinion.
Never posting an option that you did not find online - because that make it a fact.

Bravo DMV!


You've proven time and again that "thinking" isn't your strong suit. Hell its not even in your wheelhouse. You're more of an emotional hot mess with feelings over facts.

So, that's a big NO from you? Ok. You said it and meant it. Got it.
DrMaddVibe Offline
#1050 Posted:
Joined: 10-21-2000
Posts: 55,440
So much for the "pennies on the dollar" claim a few would claim!


The Tesla Model S Takes 135 Hours To Charge

The Model S Performance boasts a near-class-leading EPA-estimated 405-mile range claim, but the Plaid is only marginally worse, with its 396-mile range estimate. Fitting the larger 21-inch wheels reduces this to 348 miles. The Performance returns a 124/115/120 MPGe energy consumption estimate on the city/highway/combined cycle, making it the most efficient Model S. The Plaid with 19-inch wheels slightly worsens this to 119/112/116 MPGe, but the 21-inch wheels have the worst effect on efficiency, returning a 102/99/101 MPGe estimate.

Tesla Model S Range And Charging Times
Battery Capacity 100 kWh
Range 348-405 miles
Level 1 AC 110V Charging time (0-100%) 135 Hours
Level 2 AC 220V Charging time (0-100%) 18 Hours
Level 3 DC 350V Charging time (10-80%) 30 Minutes
(Specifications sourced from Tesla)

If you plug the Model S's empty battery into a Level One household plug point at 120-volts, you will wait around 135 hours for a full charge. You can cut this time down to 18 hours if you use a Level Two 240-volt outlet, but a 72-ampere system reduces the time even further, down to eight hours. Using Tesla's 350-volt Level Three direct current fast charger means the battery will charge from 10 to 80 percent in 30 minutes.

The Tesla Model S Costs $100 To Charge

Using the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics portal, we learn that American citizens, on average, pay 17 cents per kWh. This value is based on a scale measuring the cost of energy across all cities, which is a fairly broad range. You'll find the cheapest electricity in cities like St. Louis and Seattle, where the current rate sits at around 13 cents per kWh. Things start to get more expensive in San Diego and San Francisco, where energy suppliers charge as much as 42 cents per kWh. Using this, we can deduce that the Model S's 100 kWh pack costs $13 to charge the battery in cheaper cities, and $42 in the most expensive cities.

Tesla Model S Charging Costs
Standard 100 kWh Battery
Low Rate States $13
High Rate States $42
DC Fast Charging $50-100
(Specifications sourced from Tesla)

Tesla's Supercharging network charges between 50 cents and $1 per kWh across all of its national stations. This pricing scale is based on how congested the stations are. When a Supercharging station is generally empty with short waiting times, you'll find yourself paying around $50 to fully charge. On occasions when the stations are busy, which is common during peak hours and festive seasons along busier road networks, the battery costs $100 to replenish.




https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/here-s-how-much-it-costs-to-charge-a-tesla-model-s/ar-BB1jczN6?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=05f28cafa9db4354bd347fc6a6dfbfd5&ei=89



Then there's the inevitable battery replacement costs, insurance costs are rising on them as well as the cost for specially designed tires too. Then there this...

https://wonderfulengineering.com/elon-musks-claims-that-teslas-will-appreciate-in-value-seem-to-have-fallen-flat/

Brick wall Brick wall Brick wall

NOT READY FOR PRIMETIME!
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