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If the Jewish state can be bullied into letting Hamas survive, how can any free nation defend itself?


WSJ
If Israel is prevented from defeating Hamas, we should be under no illusions about what it will mean for the future of democracy. If, under the pressure of internal Democratic politics and global public opinion, the Biden administration forces a “cease-fire” that leaves our closest ally in the region short of victory over an enemy that seeks to destroy it, sooner or later we shall all pay the price.

This isn’t only because Israel is a democratic nation fighting nihilist savages and theocratic tyrants, though it is that. It is because forcing it to succumb to moral outrage over the violence that invariably comes with waging war would represent the self-imposition of an inescapable restraint on our own ability to defend ourselves.

Of course Israel is battling, above all else, for its own survival. In a hostile region, it is also the sole standard-bearer of individual freedom, tolerant pluralism and self-rule. Contrast the condition of ethnic minorities, women, gays and dissidents in Israel with that of their counterparts anywhere else in the Middle East. We should give thanks every day for the sacrifices Israelis make at the fragile frontier of freedom.

Every Islamist terrorist Israel kills is one fewer threat to the rest of us. Every setback Israel can deal to the Iranian puppet masters of Hamas, Hezbollah and others inflicts a loss on the regime that is sworn to eliminate us, the “Great Satan,” and our allies. There is no historical evidence that appeasing enemies committed to our extinction ever keeps us safe.

But there’s a second sense in which the future of democracy is at stake in the bloody streets of Gaza. If Israel can somehow be bullied into forgoing victory over this enemy, our own capacity to wage wars inflicted on us will be dramatically diminished. We will have allowed a coalition of armchair media critics, far-left agitators and Islamist-sympathizing activists and governments to hold Israel to a standard no nation taking necessary measures to protect itself would ever be able to meet, a standard to which our enemies will certainly never hold themselves.

This reality of asymmetric warfare in the age of an all-seeing media and diminished faith in the virtues of our way of life has been on vivid display in the past week. After near-universal condemnation of Israel for the deaths of seven foreign aid workers in a drone attack, a British army veteran of Afghanistan and Iraq, who now serves at a senior level in the British government, put the event in context: “War requires levels of violence and destruction that few truly understand. It requires an acceptance of human suffering among innocents that is unimaginable to most. There is no such thing as a clean war. This one is more visual but not substantially worse than those I fought in,” he told me via text message.

We should be clear about what happened last week on the hazy battlefield of Gaza. The tragic error that resulted in the deaths of those brave and innocent souls was heartbreaking, but it was error. If accidents like this are deemed to discredit and delegitimize Israel’s war effort, then we can forget about our own ability to take the fight to our enemies when we need to. We will have institutionalized an asymmetric form of warfare that we simply can’t win.

Israel has been more scrupulous in its campaign than most armies in history. In World War II the British political and military leadership decided on a strategy they called—in what must rank as one of the most cynical euphemisms in history—“dehousing” German civilians: bombing cities to a level of destruction that would demoralize their inhabitants and make them turn on their Nazi government. The British people tolerated this morally doubtful approach because they had fresh in their minds the memory of the Blitz, when the Nazis successfully “dehoused” many British citizens.

Israel suffered an atrocity on Oct. 7 comparable to the Blitz yet has worked with restraint to limit inevitable civilian losses. If it can’t even be allowed to do that, we are placing impossible shackles on the fighting ability of democratic nations.

Condemning and isolating our only real friend and ally in the Middle East will leave in place the people who perpetrated the Oct. 7 massacre and their sponsors. If this is the way we fight modern wars, our enemies will have freedom to commit acts of bestial savagery on us, knowing that our own scruples will give them an insuperable advantage.

And in demanding that a democratic country conduct war to standards that have never been met by any belligerent in history—and could never be met—we will be signaling the ultimate surrender of our own democracy too.

Many layers to this onion.

And most folks without a dog in the fight think both should exist. The terror tactics of the POS the Palestinians voted FOR need to stop. And Israel seemingly waits too long then acts very harshly.

Not saying any of this is right or wrong just my thoughts on views.

They’re our ally, we need to test them as such and we also need to quit with the “aid” which is a really a money making/laundering scheme. And honestly I would ask this, HOW is Israel supposed to squash those that would/have done terrorist acts and win hearts and minds? This conundrum has been around longer than I.

Like pretending gun control works when you can’t legislate evil?

I agree.

No, they're not. Other than being humans (and I'm using the term so lightly with the Palestenians) they share NOTHING in common.


The Palestinians are terrorists. There's a reason why no other Arab nation would admit them into their country and absorb them. They will try to overthrow their host government there too. They all know it because it was the game they were all in on playing. A very sick game I might add.

Here's the 1st 10 links when I put "no Arab nation wants the Palestinians" into a search engine.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/21/why-arab-states-wont-support-palestinians-qa-00142277

https://www.mercurynews.com/2023/10/18/explainer-why-arent-arab-countries-taking-in-palestinians/

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-11-03/arab-countries-unwilling-accept-palestinian-refugees-gaza

https://www.wionews.com/world/explained-why-arab-nations-dont-want-to-take-in-palestinian-refugees-from-gaza-648913

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/5/14/the-arab-world-has-forsaken-the-palestine-cause

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/12/1218388766/egypt-israel-gaza-palestinians-hamas

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/10/14/23914904/arab-world-israel-palestine-conflict-middle-east

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/05/israel-palestine-iran-saudi-arabia/618904/https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2023/10/30/arab-leaders-must-walk-the-talk-on-palestine

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/arab-states-say-palestinians-must-stay-their-land-war-escalates-2023-10-13/

https://www.jns.org/why-are-arab-states-rejecting-the-palestinian-cause/

After what they recently did inside of Israel??? Who are we as a nation to deny them their retribution from an act of Terror? No, let them clean house and do it quick. The longer that this goes on, the more the ill informed low IQ individuals try to claim some "high ground". Nobody will make martyrs out of them. Even if they did...they do so at their own peril and most likely would STFU because they know how hard the fist coming down upon them will be.

That's a giant pile of crap, right there. ONE side wants the other side wiped out. Israel has never started a damn thing with Palestine and has only responded when ATTACKED FIRST.

Tell me where I am wrong... I'll wait, but I won't hold my breath.

^
This.

I'll add that it couldn't possibly be about land (Israeli settlements) and resources (The Leviathan gas field off of the coast of Gaza) like I mentioned when this started last year.

Also, the article failed to mention the mighty Hamas air force. Their state of the art warplanes consist of a parachute strapped to a seat with wheels, with a 2-stroke engine mounted on the seat, hooked up to a propeller. It's easy to see how Israel was overrun.

I could take the engine off of my commercial grade trimmer and build one myself if Joe Sanostra ever sends those F-16's to kill me because I wont relinquish my 2nd amendment rights.

Yeah, you could also go with "war crimes".

Is the genocide of a civilian population by an opposing army a war crime?

What about "ethnic cleansing"? That sounds better.

Some people, myself included, agree with you... Clearly there is no talking actual sense into some people who aren't looking at the big picture.

Bigger picture, just go back to the Sykes-Pecot agreement. That's a start.

But that would mean the land on which many Israeli settlements sit, would revert back to Palestine.

Aint happening.

Or Israel

1948 onward, yes.

And we are post 1948, so Israel is right there on the map... It's not going anywhere either, despite the best attempts by some lunatics in pajamas running around yelling Aloha Snackbar.

So? Like you said maybe Israel should get it over with already.

Really doesn't have much to do with the article Ray posted or my initial comment. Or the comment I posted in response to Ray's article.

My comments are geared toward posts 2, 6, and 11.

I know Israel is on the map. They are a country in the Middle East.

Well, I'm out. I'll Talk to you guys later on. Lol

Ok. Prior to 1948 the state of Israel did not exist, therefore it wasn't on a map.

Kinda like prior to 1863 the U.S. state of West Virginia did not exist, therefore it wasn't on a map.

Stog, I disagree with you on the genocide part of my initial post. (Post #2)

Genocide:
The systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.
The systematic killing of a racial or cultural group.

It looks like an attempt to me eliminate the Palestinian people to me, not just Hamas.

Post #6 I agree with that article more than I do with the OP.

Post #11 I think this is about land and resources as well as different ideologies.

I read every word of the OP article. Let me know what you think of the Lew Rockwell article that Ray posted.

No hard feelings whatsoever on my end. This type of debate used to be everyday, here.

Unfortunately, it is and was inevitable that a small number of Gazans die because of Hamas tactics. 2.1 million people live in Gaza, roughly 33 thousand have died. This is about 1.5% of the Gazan population. It is patently absurd to consider this attempted genocide. War is brutal, terrorist attacks are cowardly. Until Israel has destroyed Hamas it will not and should not stop fighting.

The world court should be ashamed of itself for bring charges against Israel. Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields. To kill Hamas, you must destroy the shields. War is hell. I support Israel completely and unconditionally, though not blindly. If their tactics rise to the level of war crimes, then I will not support Israel.

As far as the attack on the Iranian embassy, they are the terrorist state that funds basically all Islamic fundamentalist terrorist groups. Hamas terrorists are reported to have been in the embassy. Israel sent Iran a message, pure and simple.

I find it fascinating that NONE of the Arab nations in the region will take in Palestinians.
When we get hit again like we did in 9/11, (and we will get hit) it will be interesting to see how we respond.

YES!

You mean exactly like a insurrection?

As far as I recall learning about WWII... Japan did not hide their combatants in hospitals, schools and civilian neighborhoods.

The Palestinians and Hamas do this every time, for the exact reason of claiming that Israel is targeting civilians. It's simply NOT TRUE.

But still praying and screaming for the death of Israel and the United States.


Weird

Yes, they do... weird way to commit genocide or war crimes or atrocities, don'tcha think?

Better to inform oneself than believe the media's lies.

Hamas May Not Have Enough Living Hostages for Cease-Fire Deal
The group is in discussions with Israel over releasing 40 women, children, elderly and sick captives


WSJ
Fears are rising over the fate of the remaining hostages held in Gaza after Hamas said it was unsure whether it could bring forth 40 Israeli civilian captives as part of a U.S.-backed cease-fire proposal, according to officials familiar with the negotiations.

The 40 hostages, including women, children, elderly men, and those in fragile health, would be released under a U.S.-supported plan for a six-week cease-fire in the war in Gaza. In exchange, Israel would release hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

Instead, the militant group has been unable to confirm that it has enough civilian hostages to fulfill its end of the deal in the initial phase of the proposed plan, complicating talks toward a possible cease-fire in the six-month-old war that has left much of Gaza in ruins.

A Hamas official said the group wouldn’t commit to releasing 40 living hostages but could commit to 40 hostages total, which could mean dead or alive.

The admission by the militant group, which took more than 240 hostages during its lethal Oct. 7 attack on Israel, has heightened fears among families of the hostages, who are piling pressure on the Israeli government to cut a deal with Hamas that would pause the fighting and free at least some of the remaining captives.

“Every day without a deal endangers them. For half a year, they have been toying with their lives, permitting their blood to be spilled,” said Hadas Kalderon, the mother of two children who were kidnapped by Hamas and later freed, speaking at a protest outside Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on Tuesday. The children’s father remains in captivity.

The Israeli government has rejected the families’ accusation that it hasn’t made the hostages a priority and says freeing the captives is a top priority of the war. Both Israel and Hamas responded critically to a new U.S. cease-fire proposal this week.

The Israeli military declined to comment on estimates of how many hostages may remain alive. The Israeli prime minister’s office declined to comment on the matter.

The exact number of hostages still alive is a central issue in the negotiations toward a cease-fire deal. Proposals by the U.S. and Arab states envision Israel releasing Palestinian prisoners, in varying numbers, in return for different types of Israeli hostages including civilians, female soldiers, male soldiers and the bodies of dead captives. Ambiguity around the number of living hostages and their identities could impede progress in the talks.

Separately, U.S. intelligence reports indicate that an attack on Israeli assets by Iran or its militia allies could be imminent, U.S. officials said Wednesday, as the top American military commander for the Middle East headed to Israel to coordinate a response.

Iran has publicly threatened to retaliate for a strike in Syria on an Iranian diplomatic building in Damascus last week, presumed to be the work of Israel, that killed top Iranian military officials, including a senior member of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps’ elite Quds Force.

The U.S. alert offers yet another sign of how Israel’s war in Gaza following the Oct. 7 attacks has spread into a regional conflict, which in turn is complicating a resolution of disputes between Israel and Hamas. Among those, hostages remain at the forefront.

Around 130 remaining hostages taken in the attack are still in Gaza. Of those, Israeli officials have publicly confirmed that 34 are dead, but Israeli and American officials estimate privately that the number of deaths could be much higher. More than 100 other hostages were freed during a weeklong cease-fire in a deal with Hamas in November.

U.S. and Israeli officials believe that some of the remaining hostages are being held by Hamas and used as human shields around the group’s leadership, which Israeli officials believe is hiding in tunnels in southern Gaza.

Some U.S. estimates indicate that most of the hostages are already dead, U.S. officials familiar with the intelligence said. They stressed, however, that U.S. visibility on the hostages is limited and depends, in part, on Israeli intelligence. Some were likely killed during Israeli strikes on Gaza, the officials said, while others have died from health issues, including injuries suffered during their initial capture.

The Office of the Director of National Intelligence declined to comment.

The latest estimates mark a notable increase from recent U.S. assessments. As recently as February, Israeli and U.S. officials believed that at least 50 hostages had been killed, suggesting that roughly 80 remained alive.

The majority of the dead died as a result of wounds they suffered during the Oct. 7 attack. Others were already dead when militants took their bodies into Gaza and some are believed to have been killed by Hamas in captivity. The Israeli military in December also said it mistakenly shot and killed three hostages. At least one died in a failed Israeli rescue mission.

Hamas officials for weeks have told negotiators that the group was unable to confirm how many hostages remain alive, according to Arab mediators talking directly to the group. Egypt and Qatar are acting as intermediaries in negotiations between Hamas and Israel.

At times, Hamas argued that providing information on the remaining hostages would mean giving up leverage in the negotiations, the mediators said.

Hamas has also repeatedly said that it needs a pause in fighting to track and collect the hostages. The group made the argument before it agreed to the November cease-fire deal, an agreement that eventually collapsed in part because Hamas failed to produce a list of 10 living civilian women and children held in Gaza.

Hamas repeated the argument on Thursday. “Part of negotiations is to reach a ceasefire agreement to have enough time and safety to collect final and more precise data about the captured Israelis, because they are in different places by different groups, some of them are under the rubble killed with our own people,” Basem Naim, a member of the Hamas political bureau in Gaza, said on the group’s Telegram channel.

Mediators believe that the majority of the remaining hostages who remain alive are younger male hostages, including soldiers.

One solution to Hamas’s refusal to provide a list of 40 civilian hostages slated for release in the initial phase of the deal would be to include captive Israeli soldiers. Hamas has been reluctant to do that because it is demanding a much higher price for the soldiers, including the release of Palestinian prisoners serving long sentences on terrorism-related charges.

Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti in 2003 PHOTO: TAL COHEN/AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE/GETTY IMAGES
Hamas has also sought a deal that would end the war in Gaza and demanded a full Israeli withdrawal from the enclave. The group also aims to negotiate the release of senior Palestinian political and militant leaders, including Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, as a part of the final phase of a potential cease-fire deal with Israel, according to officials familiar with the talks.

In Israel, a forensic medical committee is tasked with determining hostage deaths from afar using classified intelligence. Members of the committee mostly rely on security-camera footage and videos from devices recovered in Gaza as the war has progressed.

It was the committee that determined the deaths of 34 hostages taken on Oct. 7, most of whom died in the attack, according to Ofer Merin, director-general at Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem and a member of the committee.

“It’s been six months since these people were taken into Gaza. These families have no second in the day or a second in the night that their minds are calm. They are in constant agony,” said Merin.

Determinations of death must meet a high bar and are never based on one piece of intelligence alone. Israel has separately recovered the bodies of 12 other hostages, bringing the total number of hostages who are confirmed dead to 46.

Families of some American hostages have increased their public pressure on the Biden administration to do more to secure their loved ones’ release. On Tuesday, Vice President Kamala Harris met with some of these families.

“There’s no question the war must be won and Hamas must be eradicated. But the hostages are running out of time,” Orna Neutra, the mother of Israeli-American hostage Omer Neutra, told CNN’s “State of the Union.” “It’s not clear whether the Israeli administration has the priority right,” she said.

Rachel Goldberg-Polin, whose 23-year-old son Hersh Goldberg-Polin is being held by Hamas, described the White House meeting as a productive discussion but also said the families “want results.”

Harris “underscored that President Biden and she have no higher priority than reuniting the hostages with their loved ones. She also reaffirmed the U.S. commitment to bring home the remains of those who have been tragically confirmed to be deceased,” the White House said after the meeting.

Speaking of looking into your own government's record of war crimes I highly recommend Union Terror: Debunking the False Justifications for Union Terror Against Southern Civilians in the American Civil War (Shotwell Publishing, 2023) written by Dr. Jeffrey Addicott.
https://shotwellpublishing.com/union-terror/

He is a terrorism and war crimes expert, he describes himself as a "proud 20-year veteran of the United States Army who not only spent most of my career as a senior legal advisor responsible for ensuring compliance with the law of war, but also had the good fortune to serve as the Staff Judge Advocate to the United States Army Special Forces Command (Airborne) – the Green Berets. Consisting of five active-duty Special Forces (SF) groups and two Army National Guard groups, the assigned duties of SF include direct action combat strikes against enemy forces and warfare training of allied indigenous forces – both missions heavily dependent on a strict adherence to the law of war and the highest levels of professionalism. As a subject matter expert in covering the requirements of the law of armed conflict, there is no greater satisfaction to witness how ethical conduct and combat efficiency go hand in hand."

An extremely well-researched book based on primary documents and first-hand accounts on all sides exposing the policy of command-approved terrorism by Lincoln down to his generals.

Book review by Philip Leigh:
https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/union-terror/