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Last post 23 years ago by tailgater. 17 replies replies.
Abortion
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tailgater Offline
#1 Posted: Wed, May 2 2001, 5:26 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I've apparently got no say in this matter since I am male. But there is a new proposal out there to more harshly prosecute criminals. If a person attacks a pregnant woman and the baby is lost, it would allow the courts to charge the man with murder even if the woman is OK. It's a victory for humanity. But if killing a fetus/unborn baby is murder, what then is abortion? The abortion rights activists who claim to support womens rights are against this bill due to the logical progression and precedence available to potentially ban abortion. They will allow criminals to go free in the name of women rights. I don't get it.
BrentM01 Offline
#2 Posted: Wed, May 2 2001, 9:24 AM EST
Joined: 05-30-2000
Posts: 343
Tailgator, you make me laugh. Do you sit home worrying about all this stuff? (just JOKING here bud) I'm going to mail you a bottle of antacids cause your going to kill yourself with all this stress you put yourself under. Take a look on the main Political Board and see how many issues you have posted. In some ways perhaps I'm jealous because I have no time to post as much as some of you (schoolwork and all). but, man, you gotta calm down or you'll give yourself an ulcer!. BTW, I agree the issue makes no sense. Now go out and play and have some fun for a change.....signed, DAD.
unklebill Offline
#3 Posted: Wed, May 2 2001, 9:33 AM EST
Joined: 12-29-1999
Posts: 729
You are right, a logical progression can be drawn between the two. Abortion is a line that you must clearly stand to one side of: for or against. The question is; Does a fetus, at all stages of development have total protection and rights under the law. If the answer is yes then there can be no abortions at any stage for any reason, nor can there be birth control pills. If the answer is no, then there can be abortions.
The example you sited, currenlty before the courts is an interesting one.
I personally believe that abortions should be allowed. The greater good in the instances of rape, incest, risk to mother, disease, and some other instances warrant it. More importantly it is a matter of a persons personal right. I would hate to see the govt have to give abortion aprovals in cases of rape.
Let the govt stay out of our lives on this one.

Charlie Offline
#4 Posted: Wed, May 2 2001, 10:34 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
The abortion thing is one issue that I do not agree with! I think it is a woman's(more importantly-a couple's) right to decide on this issue.
tailgater Offline
#5 Posted: Wed, May 2 2001, 5:16 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Brent, looking for intelligent discussion of a political nature is not stress-causing. I choose this forum, since I come here anyway to browse for cigar deals. I don't have the luxury of listening to talk radio or visiting other web sites in order to get my "political fix". Besides, nobody I know will actually talk with me in person...
tailgater Offline
#6 Posted: Wed, May 2 2001, 5:27 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
I am not overly religious. But I feel that ending the life of a "fetus" after the 10 or 12 week period is indeed the killing of a life. Murder is a strong word, and perhaps not appropriate. I've got the Ultrasound pictures of my three kids at the 10 week time frame. If I had a scanner, I'd show you. The picture is of a little person. This is not about the womans right to choose. This is not about rape or incest, or even endangering the mothers life. Those issues are black and white, since the "procedure" is 100% necessary in those cases. I'm talking about the "decision" to end this tiny life because it would inconvenience the mother-to-be. School, work, social, or economic "reasons" are not justification to end the life. And if you still feel that it's the mothers choice, then at what point do you NOT allow the abortion. i.e., at how many weeks does the "thing" become a person? Is it at birth? Or the third trimester of pregnancy? When? Nobody has ever answered that clearly.
Charlie Offline
#7 Posted: Thu, May 3 2001, 3:53 PM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
Joe, very good points and I tend to agree with you that we should not make a practice of ripping little people from the womb. However, in case of incest, rape, etc....then abortion is certainly the answer and at the very earliest stage possible! I don't pretend to have the answers-I just wish it would not be such a live issue! Charlie
RICKAMAVEN Offline
#8 Posted: Thu, May 3 2001, 11:47 PM EST
Joined: 10-01-2000
Posts: 33,248
"This is not about rape or incest, or even endangering the mothers life. Those issues are black and white, since the "procedure" is 100% necessary in those cases." you are saying on one hand, abortion is murder, but on the other hand it is ok to murder the result (a child by your definition) of rape or incest.
you can't have it both ways. the real problem is no one is pro-abortion, but there have always been and will always be abortions. you have defined your acceptance of abortion as in case of rape and/or incest. other people have their own definition of when abortion is acceptable. in the early 20th century, rich people flew to countries more accepting of the procedure. poor people used back alley hacks, or wire coat hangers and died of infection. the religious right (and they could be completely wrong) should stop trying to impose thier beliefs on others. note shrub not only stopped sending money to countries that allow abortions, but cut funds for family planning that could easily reduce the number of abortions. all this is done in the name of his g-d. where is it written that his g-d is more valid than my g-d?
tailgater Offline
#9 Posted: Fri, May 4 2001, 5:12 AM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Rick, that is why I stated that I am not overly religious. If I were, then abortion for any reason would be wrong. If it is a case of Rape or Incest, then the abortion would be performed almost immediately. In the case of the mothers life being in danger, it is a decision to SAVE a life, although at the unfortunate loss of another. That is not a contradiction, as you imply. My problem is with a CHOICE being made due to economic or social reasons. The VAST MAJORITY of abortions are performed for no reason other than not wanting the child. (If I had to guess, it's probably around 99%). Why should it be legal and acceptable to stop a beating heart simply based on these factors? This is not about religion, at least not for me. It's about ending a life before it has an opportunity to be significant. There is a waiting list a mile long to adopt newborn babies. Folks will even assist a would be mother with all the medical bills. And I still have not heard anybody explain at what point the child becomes a person.
Charlie Offline
#10 Posted: Fri, May 4 2001, 5:49 AM EST
Joined: 06-16-2002
Posts: 39,751
We are wading into the waters that I have always tried to stay away from on the abortion issue and I am going to duck out of this one! Maybe the real answer is birth control and sex education. Then we jump into the religion and racial area...........have at it guys!
Charlie
CL Offline
#11 Posted: Fri, May 4 2001, 7:08 PM EST
Joined: 02-08-2000
Posts: 855
Good discussion, guys, but the original question here concerns what action should be taken against an attacker that ends an unborn's life. Great point you originally posed, Gater, that politics and fear of what may spring from this may very well stand in the way of (IMO) just punishment. IMO, the attacker is a murderer. Look at your children -- would you consider it murder if someone had attacked your wife and she had lost your child? Will that person ever be tried as a murderer? Probably not, with the political climate on this hot issue.
tailgater Offline
#12 Posted: Sat, May 5 2001, 6:36 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Exactly my point, only you stated it much more clearly than I. That attacker should indeed be tried as a murderer. Yet, if that is murder, then wouldn't abortion be the same crime, only by choice rather than circumstance?
tailgater Offline
#13 Posted: Sat, May 5 2001, 6:45 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
To look at the single issue of abortion, without cluttering the airways with religion, let's consider this: The human body is a wonderful machine. When a woman becomes pregnant she doesn't have to really "do" anything to keep that baby alive. She only needs to eat, drink and be relatively healthy and the baby will more often than not be born with little circumstance. To end the fetus' life, she actually has to "do" something by performing a procedure. Once that baby is born, however, the complete opposite it true. To keep the baby alive, she must nurture and care for the baby which is a difficult chore. To end the baby's life, she simply has to "do nothing". Yet, in the eyes of the law, if she does NOTHING she will be committing a heinous crime, whereas if she performed a difficult procedure earlier on, it would have been perfectly legal. Quite a difference a couple of months makes...
tailgater Offline
#14 Posted: Sat, May 5 2001, 6:57 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
BTW, still waiting to hear at exactly what point the fetus becomes a baby and therefore a human being... Anybody?
gdurfor Offline
#15 Posted: Sat, May 5 2001, 10:00 PM EST
Joined: 01-24-2001
Posts: 288
i believe in a women's right to choose. She can say yes to sex or not. It's ok to just say no.
Abortion is NOT a form of birth control. In matters of rape/incest/physical health of the mother that's a different story. Glenn
unklebill Offline
#16 Posted: Mon, May 7 2001, 4:32 AM EST
Joined: 12-29-1999
Posts: 729
A baby only becomes a baby when it is born. At that time it begins to become conscious of its own existance and conscious of its surroundings. Though it is not at this point capable of 'thought' as we realize it or cognition, I think birth is a clear benchmark.
CL Offline
#17 Posted: Mon, May 7 2001, 4:51 AM EST
Joined: 02-08-2000
Posts: 855
This very issue took place on E.R. Thursday! A boyfriend had given his girlfriend, without her knowledge, some kind of root extract in her tea which was supposed to cause miscarriage. She did miscarry, and almost bled to death. Without much question, police came in and took the boyfriend away on murder charges. I think the writers read our board for hot issues! Hey, Bill, clarify -- are you saying abortion is o.k. up until the day before delivery (given that the choice hinges on whether or not it's a baby)?
tailgater Offline
#18 Posted: Tue, May 8 2001, 4:49 PM EST
Joined: 06-01-2000
Posts: 26,185
Uncle, thanks for putting a stake in the ground. Declaring a baby a human being at birth would answer one issue I had stated earlier regarding abandonment. But you know very well that "birth" isn't good enough. Too many factors involved, and the fact that some babies are born earlier doesn't give them the right to stake claim to being significant before full term babies. My neice was born 2 lbs, 8 ounces. She was over two months pre-mature. Her birth was induced early to prevent further complications. Are you stating that she would not have been a person for another two months unless the doctors pulled her out? Please check out the website on my next post. Please be sitting down when you do.
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